Heaven Above
Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? Ecclesiastes 3:21 NASB
Ascends upward – “Ecclesiastes, alone in the Bible, is aware of the belief that at death the soul goes upward to the heavens, rather than down to Sheol. This idea is not Semitic in origin, but it was found in popular Hellenistic religion, which held that the soul rises to the ether, the heavenly seat of the gods.”[1]
Perhaps you should read that statement again. The idea of the soul rising to heaven isn’t found in the Tanakh. In the Tanakh, when a person dies, the nephesh (the person) goes to Sheol, the place of the dead, and awaits judgment. Everyone, good or evil, goes to Sheol. But when Hellenism began to impact Jewish-Hebrew thought in the 4th century BC, certain religious concepts present in Greek thinking found their way into rabbinic exegesis. Among these was the idea that the soul of the righteous ascended to heaven to be with God during the time between death and the Judgment. This idea made significant inroads among the rabbis, so much so that by the time Yeshua came on the scene, the concept of immediate translation to heaven or hell was firmly entrenched in even Jewish religious thinking. One of the reasons that the Sadducees objected to the doctrine of the resurrection was the awareness that this idea had its roots in Hellenism, not in the Tanakh. Of course, today both Hellenistic Judaism (which is really what Judaism is since the second century BC) and Christianity share this common belief. But it didn’t start in the ancient near-east. Perhaps that’s why the scope of the Tanakh is so entirely focused on this world and this life. After all, who knows what happens next?
The complicated interplay of ruah, nephesh, mut and the olam ha’ba simply isn’t clearly articulated in the Tanakh. Yeshua added a great deal to our understanding of the relationships between this life and the next, but it would be a mistake to claim that even He didn’t reflect some of the Hellenistic influence that was part of His culture. Perhaps the Father was really revealing more of this puzzle and that revelation happened to line up with some of the prior Greek thought. But if Yeshua is a man of His own age, then we can certainly see that Hellenism had an impact on rabbinic ideas during the time He walked the earth.
Does this possibility scare you? It might if you are putting your eggs in the “get to heaven” basket. If the focus of your hope is the exit strategy from this world to a place of perfect bliss, then you might feel a bit of discomfort when you read Michael Fox’s statement and realize that much of our thinking about heaven comes from Greek mystery religions, not from Hebrew Scripture. Just because the source of this material isn’t found in our canon doesn’t mean it isn’t correct. If your focus is pleasing the Lord and blessing others, then this little detail probably won’t bother you too much. You will ascribe it to one of those “no one knows for sure” categories. By the time you really have to face the issue, it won’t matter any more. You’ll be dead. Maybe it is disconcerting to realize that the Tanakh says next to nothing about what happens next. But it shouldn’t be surprising. The Tanakh looks to the past, not the future. It faces the long history of God’s faithfulness, His interaction with all those who stood before us, the relationships that they created or destroyed, the legacy they left and the story we will leave – this is the emphasis of the Tanakh. It is a masterpiece of trust, not the assurance of afterlife reward. If this is the foundation, the rest won’t matter, no matter how it turns out.
Topical Index: heaven, afterlife, olam ha’ba, nephesh, Ecclesiastes 3:21
Hi Skip,
I’m not at all that sure that ruach is the same as nephesh. Although at first sight it looks a bit Hellenistic to differentiate between nephesh and ruach, there are some reasons to look at it as a more Semitic view of man.
First:
Nephesh is a word that covers man completely, as a person. You cannot separate body, spirit and soul. Lose one, you lose everything. But…. These word give clear distinctions: there is no doubt as to what the word ‘body’ means: the very physical side of man – and nothing else. A body can exist only very short without the life-giving spirit. No spirit means: decay of the body. When you breath your last breath (=give up your spirit), your spirit is gone and your body starts decaying. You can kill someone two ways: by destroying his body (with weapons) or by taking away his breath of life (spirit) by strangulation.
In both cases the result is the same: death, disappearance of the nephesh, the person(ality).You are no longer there. Your soul (personality) is in Hades / Sheol. Hades (Greek) is made up of ‘a-‘ and ‘ides/idein’. This means: not-perceivable. Sheol (Hebrew) means something similar: ‘it is the question’. Maybe you could translate by a question mark: ?
I believe Hades / Sheol is not a place, but a state, namely the state of being no more. This in spite of the fact that it’s also very graphically pictured as a place where persons speak and live (Luke 16:22,23). But everyone of Jesus’ audience knew he was painting a picture, using midrash, not describing reality, for they all knew Ecclesiates 9:5,10. (If this should not have been the case, the scribes would have instantly attacked Jesus.) So filling Hades with waiting souls is very Hellenistic, not Hebrew. Although this word is used by NT authors, it is certainly not used the same way Plato did.
Second:
As you are very well aware of (you taught us) man is the only creature that God breathed the breath of life into, namely into his nostrils. This is said of no other living being. This makes man special: the connection between heaven (his spirit / breath) and earth (his body). No wonder God takes back this breath of life, as is clearly stated in the same book: Ecclesiastes 12:7: the body returns to the earth, the spirit returns to God, who has given it. Death is a return of the elements to their origin (Ecclesiastes 3:20(!); Gen.3;19; Psalm 146:4; 104:29; Job 34:14,15)
I believe this to be the reason that in our verse today the breath of man ascends upward, while the breath of the beasts descends downward to the earth.
We constantly misrepresent the word ‘spirit’ with ‘consciousness’. The reason for this is that there are indeed spiritual beings who can exist without a body: spirits (good or evil). I believe what we call our ‘spirit’ in popular language is nothing else than our nephesh, our personality which includes all our thinking and awareness. The spirit of man however does not mean anything more than the principle of life, represented by our breath. No one would mistake our breath with consciousness, but strangely enough everyone does so with the word ‘spirit’.
Therefor I conclude that this verse does not give us a Hellenistic view of man, but simply consolidates the Hebrew view of man by stating that man’s breath is returning upward, while the breath of beasts is returning downward.
I hope you can find time to respond althought I don’t expect you to answer soon, while being in England.
Pitty we can’t meet; you’re so close to Holland, only a bit of sea away, but I have to work…..
Hallelujah! What a Savior.. Hallelujah! What a Friend..
Saving-Helping-Keeping-Loving
He is “with us” to the end..
Yes, (lol!) to infinity and beyond! I know believe or think I have ‘eternal life’- I know it. I know that Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh, I (now) live by the faith of the Son of G-d who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Oh, as Yeshua said unto the Pharisees, “you do err, not knowing the Scriptures- nor the power of G-d”.
Do not listen to what I say about heaven, (pay no attention to the little man inside the box)- listen to Him! Go to Him and hear His words. What does the Messiah, our Master say? He is our Savior and He is our Source of all that is good- in this world AND the next..
My first question (to all, both Greek and Hebrew, male and female, and to those who are breathing) is this: Is eternal life a quantity or a quality? “And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish” Who said this? “I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” (John 11:26.) Is G-d a liar? Was Jesus a lunatic? – “should not perish, but have everlasting life..” Everlasting life? you mean like for the next fifteen minutes or so? Forever, folks, is a long, long time.. – but is is quantity or a quality?
“I am come that you might have life and have it more abundantly” (John 10.10) Oh.. Hallelujah! Is this life “now?” or is it “later?” Or is it? (drumroll please..)- “both?” You can have your cake and eat it too!
All this..- and heaven too! “Today, you shall be with me in paradise!”- Who said that? Is He a liar? “Hath G-d said?” Are we going to believe what He says, and is He trustworthy? Have any of His words ever (ever) failed? Every time He speaks- “life” occurs. Shema O Israel- Listen to Him-obey Him- do as He says.
And when we ‘read and follow’ label directions, we we do as He ‘commands’ (does a Father ‘command’ His children?)- ‘life occurs’- right here/right now- we now have ‘eternal life’- today. In the supermarket I have Christ in me the hope of glory! As I play with my children, I have Christ in me, the hope of glory. As I live and breath and move about in this world, from up to down, from in to out, from left to right, Christ is the center, Christ is the compass and Christ is the circumference- I am (right now, right here) “in Christ” and (right here, right now) abiding in the Vine.
“These things have I written unto you (it is written!) that you may know that you (now) have eternal life! -When do we receive eternal life? When we die? NO!- Right here and right now- we (now!) are the children of G-d! “Behold, (take a good look!) what manner of love the Father (our Father) has given unto us- that we should be called the children of G-d! We are (now) the adopted ones. We are (now) the sons and daughters of El Elyon. G-d is (now) with us and G-d is (now) for us- who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all- how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? – what do the Scriptures say? I dare not quote any man, but rather go straight to the source- the same source given unto every man on this green planet- the instructions of YHWH- the word of the LORD. What do the Scriptures say? Listen.. listen to Him- Hims who is the word of G-d incarnated into human flesh. Yeshua HaMashiach- LORD of all. LORD of Heaven AND of earth. LORD of eternity and LORD of time. LORD of all flesh. LORD of things seen and LORD of things not seen. LORD of the Jew, LORD of the gentile. LORD of the living and LORD of the departed. All things have been put under His feet. All authority (in heaven and in earth) has been given unto Him. I will gladly, freely, fully- “bow the knee!”
My allergist (ranked #1 in the nation) said unto me these words.. (Hearken Carl) “if you do what I say, I can help you..” And what, dear friends, were the life-giving words of our very own Great Physician? G-d our Healer? “Follow me” – Do,as I instruct. Live as I live. Love as I love. – And pray- pray without ceasing. Rejoice evermore.
“In hope of eternal life, which G-d, who cannot lie, promised before the world began;” (Titus 1.2)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. (Numbers 21.8)
“Looking unto Yeshua- the Author and the Completer of our faith..”
“For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of G-d in Him.”
“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool. (Isaiah 1.18)
~He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption~
Once for all, O sinner, receive it,
Once for all, O brother, believe it;
Cling to the cross, the burden will fall,
Christ has redeemed us once for all.
By George, I think you’ve got it!
Psalm 37:11 and Matt 5
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Looks like Andrae KNEW or understood something back in the 1960s
Andrae Crouch and the disciples
If Heaven Was Never Promised
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaduxuGmWc
You may ask me why I serve the Lord,
Is it just for heaven’s gain.
Or to walk those mighty streets of gold,
And to hear the angels sing.
Is it just to drink from the fountain,
That never shall run dry.
Or just to live forever, ever, and ever,
In that sweet, sweet bye and bye.
Chorus:
But if heaven never was promised to me,
Neither God’s promise to live eternally.
It’s been worth just having the Lord in my life.
Living in a world of darkness,
You came along and brought me the light.
If there were never any streets of gold,
Neither a land where we’ll never grow old,
It’s been worth just having the Lord in my life.
You’ve been my closest friend down through the years,
And every time I cry You dry my tears.
It’s been worth just having the Lord in my life.
Living in a world of darkness,
living in a world of darkness,
You came along and brought me the light.
T&A,
I did not know that Andrea was born in San Francisco:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andra%C3%A9_Crouch
j
“Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? Ecclesiastes 3:21 NASB”
The passage above and especially the interpretation does not sound like Qoheleth to me
Seems to me more like the Eastern view of the spiritual vrs the animal nature of man
Walking into a Cathedral the grandeur of God “takes our breath” and we look up
When we watch a comedy, nerdy men look at sexy women and pant heavily
MICHAEL,
“When we watch a comedy, nerdy men look at sexy women and pant heavily” the beast descends downward to the earth _ the animal nature of man… 🙁
BUT YOU LIKE ECCLESIASTES OR AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID… ♥ J
Hi Jan,
I love EECCLESIASTES and don’t think “animal nature” is necessarily evil
It is just another “binary opposition” (“low” comedy vrs “high” tragedy)
And Qoheleth says “Who knows,” always calling most everything into question 🙂
Michael,
“don’t think “animal nature” is necessarily evil” – no animal nature is not evil but men/women who behave or act out animal nature can be evil – i would think that is what differentiates us human beans from animals…
SO AGREED: It is just another “binary opposition” (“low” comedy vrs “high” tragedy) – high tragedy is the problem 4 sure… 🙁
j
Might not sound like Qoheleth, but it is. Shows you how much Hellenism began to affect even biblical thinkers. And, of course, truth is truth no matter where you find it. Ecclesiastes is a remarkable book, not only for its rather pessimistic view of life but for the fact that it is even in Scripture.
Hi Skip,
I understand, but Max wants no more writing until he gets his walk 🙂
I’ll be the dummy who asks, “So is heaven not a real place?” So what does happen when a believer dies? What about 2 Cor. 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.?” What about Yeshua, Himself, telling the thief that they would be together in paradise. I realize these are NT references, but they are there, none the less.
The question is not a dumb one. Indeed, it is a very important one. But the lesson here is that the concept of heaven and all that we associate with it (and have added to it) didn’t come ready-made. It evolved over a long period. That forces us to ask the other “dumb” question: How did men arrive at the view of heaven that we assume to be true today? Where did that idea come from? How did it become so much a part of our religious thinking that Yeshua speaks about it in ways unlike those of Qoheleth?
“That forces us to ask the other “dumb” question: How did men arrive at the view of heaven that we assume to be true today? Where did that idea come from?”
Hi Skip,
I had never thought about it in such a clear and simple way before
But the first time I listened to Rabbi Gorelik
He said in his understated way that it came from this Italian poet called Dante
And that it had nothing to do with the Hebrew worldview
Dante’s Divine Comedy had always seemed like the Catholic worldview to me
Except that Dante seemed to put his salvation in the hands of Beatrice
Which did not please the Pope as I recall 🙂
Michael,
LOL – who gives a flip if the Pope is pleased – if Sister B can lead Brother D to the Lord Jesus then so B it for D… ♥
jano 🙂 😉
“who gives a flip if the Pope is pleased”
Hi Jan,
Well Dante was just a poet and the Pope, Boniface VIII, was extremely powerful and ruthless.
In his Bull of 1302, Unam Sanctam, Boniface VIII proclaimed that it “is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff,” pushing papal supremacy to its historical extreme.
These views and his intervention in “temporal” affairs led to many bitter quarrels with the Emperor Albert I of Habsburg (1291–1298), Philip IV of France (1285–1314), and with the powerful family of the Colonnas
Dante Alighieri wrote De Monarchia to argue against the Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII.
The quarrel with the Colonnas culminated in Boniface VIII ordering the destruction of their family city, Palestrina, after it surrendered peacefully under Boniface’s assurances that it would be spared.
Well Michael, that was really a very somber & serious response – must have evoked such a feeling/thinking in you. i guess i never have given a flip about the pope & not going to start…
but thanks for the history lesson – just one more thing to download in my computer resting on my shoulders… 😉
and i hope you are not abdicating or i mean advocating we care what the pope says now or ever – at least if we are not catholic & i have never been & never will be… j
“Well Michael, that was really a very somber & serious response”
Hi jan,
Well it wasn’t meant to be somber, my point was that Dante had to be very concerned
About the Pope
Because Dante was essentially putting his life on the line
The info itself came from Wiki, which is great for refreshing one’s memory
Regarding historical details that my old memory can no longer recall 🙂
I care about Popes less than I care about Presidents
And I don’t put much stock in what President’s say either 🙂
Instead of responding to comments made here – i will make my comment now; i find it very interesting Skip that this conversation/thought/expounding continues to come up here/with you. I’m not sure why??? is there some importance to changing that which we have been led to believe all our lives in our Christian teaching about heaven – why is it so important to you that we change our belief in regard to where we go after we die – heaven or not???
i don’t really think/feel many on this earth are doing anything for God/Jesus just so we will go to heaven – matter of fact i think/feel we don’t think about those consequences enough… ♥
what difference is it going to make when we die – we are mostly probably going to have a rude awakening anyway of what we thought to be truth & is not… or it & beyond… ♥
i mean – is it on your mind so much that you feel we should be prepared for what is coming soon – the TRUTH of the matter – really, what are you thinking & why does it continue to come up – do you even know yourself or is the work of the Holy Spirit??? CURIOS & INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW… 🙂
J
i find the TRUTH of what you are conveying way less interesting than the reason you are compelled…
I think, the importance lies more with the problems with the Hellenistic view of hell (gehenna, sheol, Hades), than with our concepts of heaven. But the doctrines of heaven/hell are intertwined.
Hi Gabe,
Thanks for the hint!
I looked up Gehenna in Wiki and found the following information, qual es muy delicioso 🙂
Gehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom.
Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba’als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire.
(2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).
In both Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna was a destination of the wicked.This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible traditionally translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.
English “Gehenna” represents the Greek Geenna (γέεννα) found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic Gēhannā (ܓܗܢܐ), equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally “Valley of Hinnom”.
This was known in the Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, literally the “Valley of the son of Hinnom”, and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.
In the Qur’an, Jahannam (جهنم) is a place of torment for sinners or the Islamic equivalent of Hell.
This verse in Isaiah 38:17-19 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
I relate the above scripture to what Skip is saying in this last paragraph:
‘It faces the long history of God’s faithfulness, His interaction with all those who stood before us, the relationships that they created or destroyed, the legacy they left and the story we will leave – this is the emphasis of the Tanakh. It is a masterpiece of trust, not the assurance of afterlife reward. If this is the foundation, the rest won’t matter, no matter how it turns out.’
As far as heaven is concerned, the perfect description of heaven to me is found in 1 Kings 6-7. That is what heaven will look like to me, the Holy Temple, worshiping and praising my King forever and ever.
As far hell, look up the word “pit”. I think it conveys a stronger meaning than “hell”, beginning with Numbers 16-18 and all the way through Revelation, then something strange happens, the word “hell” and “death” are both cast into the lake of fire…..Rev.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And Dear Jan:i find the TRUTH of what you are conveying way less interesting than the reason you are compelled”……..This really bothers me ….how can you be way more concerned with the REASON Skip has for writing the truth than the TRUTH of what he is saying? I hope I mis-understood what you were saying, but if not, then you need to stop reading the “National Enquirer so much and read more of the Truth..G-d’s Truth…no matter who speaks it…it is still His truth….
Hi Robin,
I rarely think about the afterlife or objectifications of Heaven and Hell
And tend to think of hell in terms of anxiety, guilt, the pit of depression
I think of heaven in emotional terms of inspiration, trust, and love
Heaven is in our mind
Robin, i do find it interesting what compels Skip to bring up this subject time after time. I am not saying it is NOT truth but i find it interesting that it seems very prevalent on his mind of late. i hardly ever think about this issue until he/Skip brings it up – it is not that it is not truth but why the fuss???
i guess you might say what is the deal or what is the obsession or passion of this subject for him/Skip??? i would just like to know – is it the Holy Spirit prompting him to bring up this subject frequently or is it something else – just wondering what is compelling him to teach/preach on it so much – that is all; is that sufficient for you Robin???
Good heavens (oops maybe i should not use that term here) – is this attack Jan day – well just have at it – hack away – with all this pruning i’m getting here today – i should be bearing lovely fruit in the near future – come Spring… ♥
THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER – LORD JESUS – I HAVEN’T EVEN TOUCHED OR SEEN ONE OF THOSE IN YEARS – HOW LAUGHABLE IS THAT ONE?!?!?!
YES, GOD’S TRUTH IS GOD’S TRUTH THANK GOODNESS BUT DOESN’T MEAN ALL SPEAK IT – NOT SPEAKING OF SKIP OF COURSE BUT WE AS HUMANS ARE ALL FALLIBLE STILL – MAY BE SOMEDAY WE WILL BE AS HE (not skip but GOD/JESUS) IS… ♥
Hi Michael,
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”
― Winston S. Churchill
Your definition of hell kind of takes the bite out of Churchill’s quote.
I personally believe in hell or the lake of fire as the Word describes…I will take my chances on believing and acting accordingly, than to not believe and find out too late that I was wrong….common sense
Robin,
i have a question for you – is common sense in our minds – where heaven is???
jan 🙂 ♥
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell”
Hi Robin,
Well I don’t think Churchhill is thinking of the “Christian Hell”
Rather he is using an expression like “drop dead”
To emphatically tell a person that he is not going to do what they want
And make them feel good about being rejected
Common Sense: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts