How nice it is to see you in action! Looks like everybody is having a good time. Are these people natives of South Africa? They look more like American missionaries to Africa.
What were you teaching on?
As Kees mentioned, there are many South Africans with Dutch and English descent. I was teaching a 2 day seminar on the book of Ruth and the power of hesed.
cjlieben
Daria – natives of South Africa? Really? What did you expect? Stereotypical
Warren – it was not meant to be hurtful. The ignorance is just astounding, and frustrating at best. In South Africa (don’t know if you are here) we are daily faced with the notion that we do not belong here. Whites are constantly reminded about ‘apartheid’, that everything that is wrong in the current dispensation is our fault, and that we should return to wherever we came from. I myself, were born and raised here. I had no part to play in apartheid – I wasn’t even born! For her to ask if any of those in the photo are ‘natives’ is condensending. What is meant by ‘natives’? Must you be black to be a ‘native’ (to belong)?
Hi cjlieben,
Thanks. Your response clarifies the issue for me.
I’m half a world away in western Canada. I sense your frustration and can only imagine what it is like to live there. Not an easy situation, surely.
In Canada, the expression “Native” is used to describe people descended from the “First Nation” or the tribal peoples that populated North America before Europeans settled here. The expression, “native to Canada” is used to describe anyone born here.
I expect it will be three or four generations… but I pray for peace today.
Having traveled to South Africa many times now, I can vouch for the frustrations and feelings of cjleiben. I have experienced this first hand as I have ministered and taught hundreds here. South Africa is now a modern example of reverse racism, perhaps even more cruel than the previous times because now not only Whites but millions of Blacks suffer under a government rife with corruption and run by evil men. I have seen it all, and it is not pretty.
But I love the lions. If we could only steward each other as God stewards the earth.
Warren
Hi again cjlieben,
I am at work this morning, so I can only communicate a few thoughts at a time.
I appreciate your kind response. Angry people kinda freak me out. By that, I mean they scare me. I grew up with an angry person and I have been looking for constructive ways to respond ever since.
As a young man, I remember reading the verses about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons to the third and forth generations and it made quite an impact on me. It helped me see that my father was a victim of violence too and that God’s love had been working in the lives of my ancestors to undo whatever happened back there. When I look at my daughter, (our only child, age 13) I see no trace of my past. So it ends here and a thank our Lord for that. It’s hard to talk about without tears.
So I think about South Africa and know that the Spirit of the same amazing Love will have His way in time. But I have to ask… how can we hasten the time? By walking with Him, laying down our lives, being hands and feet and tongues and minds dwelling on and for that amazing Love.
You are probably aware of all the violence aimed at individual people that has happened the last few months. (There has been gruesome rapes, murders, etc.) These are all part of a massive ticking time-bomb that is very near to explosion. The South African society has a president that have multiple wifes, offer sacrifes to his ancestors, that has wangled himself out of corruption accusations, etc. The leadership is more concerned about filling their, and their extended sircle of family/friends, pockets. Their pre-occupation with themselves have left this country with rapidly bleeding wounds. There is no leadership of any sort.
The only possible answer to the societal illnesses is returning to His pure Word – following His guidelines, and His truth. That can only happen in a community of fellow believers that can show others what it is to be set-apart by his love.
Daria
I love the book of Ruth.
cjlieben wrote, “For her to ask if any of those in the photo are ‘natives’ is condensending.”
I hurt. I hurt you and I’m so sorry for sounding racist. Please please forgive me. I didn’t see “color” or “lack of color.”
I am also hurt by your immediate, hostile reaction toward me instead of walking away from what I posted, trying to think about the comment in a positive light, and coming back to ask questions to clarify my statement. Shouldn’t we be more careful in assuming things and how we treat each other?
I apparently worded my question wrong. What I was responding to in regard to the photo was THE DRESS. Of course I know that South Africa has “white” skinned people… and various “shades” of other colors as well. (BTW, one of my most precious friends in the world was from the Ethiopian bush; yep, she was a beautiful black. She was my WHITE cousin’s wife.)
You assumed that all I saw was “white” when I expected to see “black.” I was referring to the western-like dress and setting. This picture actually looks like it could have been taken at one of our town hall meetings!
Warren, from western Canada (we live very near there in the U.S. and our culture and customs are very similar) explained the term “native” for me very clearly. To me, “native” always has an extra measure of respect due.
Again, please forgive me and let’s move on. Racism is of satan. God loves people. Amen.
Daria, I ask you to forgive me. Here (in SA) you are expected to be “on-guard” so to speak. I was to quick to act on your post. I am sorry.
We have the most amazingly beautiful country, but the current dispensation is at times unbareable. The best is that I was raised by a black lady (‘live-in nanny’ would be your term) that worked for my parents as they were working most of the time. She retired after 27 years’ service. She will always be part of me. I am telling you this, as the image that is portrayed to the world of white people in SA is of racists. I am not a racist. I only realized around my senior years in high school what the effects of apartheid was. A black people were part of my life, I never thought any differently.
But, now my generation (30-somethings) is being held accountable for something we did not have any part in.
Well, that said. I am sorry. My immediate reaction was to justify, again, why I belong. Forgive me.
Daria
cjlieben,
You are forgiven. I will be praying that YHVH will give you His supernatural strength to be strong under this evil you live in daily. HOW WONDERFUL, and ironic, that your nanny was black. I bet you learned a ton from her. WHAT A SYMBOL of healing that was!
I will tell you that we in America have racism, too. Human nature is wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). To have a right Spirit in people, they (we) MUST serve YHVH… there’s no other way.
Here, in America, some blacks blame the whites for slavery (I personally didn’t have a thing to do with that evil but I am blamed. Nonsense. Some whites hate people with black skin. Wicked. Native American Indians blame me for taking away their land and way of life… nonsense. Some “whites” hate Indians…and on and on the depraved condition of the human race goes.
Yet, we have THE ONE, ALL-POWERFUL, ALL-LIVING, FORGIVING GOD Who longs to fellowship with us. Now, THAT IS AMAZING!!!
What??? No ponytail???
How nice it is to see you in action! Looks like everybody is having a good time. Are these people natives of South Africa? They look more like American missionaries to Africa.
What were you teaching on?
The Dutch colonized South Africa hundreds of years ago. And after them came the English. So there are millions of ‘native’ wites in SA.
As Kees mentioned, there are many South Africans with Dutch and English descent. I was teaching a 2 day seminar on the book of Ruth and the power of hesed.
Daria – natives of South Africa? Really? What did you expect? Stereotypical
Hi cjlieben,
I was just trying to decide if your comment to Daria was intended to be hurtful. And if so, why?
Warren – it was not meant to be hurtful. The ignorance is just astounding, and frustrating at best. In South Africa (don’t know if you are here) we are daily faced with the notion that we do not belong here. Whites are constantly reminded about ‘apartheid’, that everything that is wrong in the current dispensation is our fault, and that we should return to wherever we came from. I myself, were born and raised here. I had no part to play in apartheid – I wasn’t even born! For her to ask if any of those in the photo are ‘natives’ is condensending. What is meant by ‘natives’? Must you be black to be a ‘native’ (to belong)?
Hi cjlieben,
Thanks. Your response clarifies the issue for me.
I’m half a world away in western Canada. I sense your frustration and can only imagine what it is like to live there. Not an easy situation, surely.
In Canada, the expression “Native” is used to describe people descended from the “First Nation” or the tribal peoples that populated North America before Europeans settled here. The expression, “native to Canada” is used to describe anyone born here.
I expect it will be three or four generations… but I pray for peace today.
Peace be to you
Thank you, Warren. Perhaps I over-reacted a bit. I do apologize.
Shalom and shalom unto you
Having traveled to South Africa many times now, I can vouch for the frustrations and feelings of cjleiben. I have experienced this first hand as I have ministered and taught hundreds here. South Africa is now a modern example of reverse racism, perhaps even more cruel than the previous times because now not only Whites but millions of Blacks suffer under a government rife with corruption and run by evil men. I have seen it all, and it is not pretty.
But I love the lions. If we could only steward each other as God stewards the earth.
Hi again cjlieben,
I am at work this morning, so I can only communicate a few thoughts at a time.
I appreciate your kind response. Angry people kinda freak me out. By that, I mean they scare me. I grew up with an angry person and I have been looking for constructive ways to respond ever since.
As a young man, I remember reading the verses about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons to the third and forth generations and it made quite an impact on me. It helped me see that my father was a victim of violence too and that God’s love had been working in the lives of my ancestors to undo whatever happened back there. When I look at my daughter, (our only child, age 13) I see no trace of my past. So it ends here and a thank our Lord for that. It’s hard to talk about without tears.
So I think about South Africa and know that the Spirit of the same amazing Love will have His way in time. But I have to ask… how can we hasten the time? By walking with Him, laying down our lives, being hands and feet and tongues and minds dwelling on and for that amazing Love.
YHWH bless you and keep you
Hi again
Yes, you are correct.
You are probably aware of all the violence aimed at individual people that has happened the last few months. (There has been gruesome rapes, murders, etc.) These are all part of a massive ticking time-bomb that is very near to explosion. The South African society has a president that have multiple wifes, offer sacrifes to his ancestors, that has wangled himself out of corruption accusations, etc. The leadership is more concerned about filling their, and their extended sircle of family/friends, pockets. Their pre-occupation with themselves have left this country with rapidly bleeding wounds. There is no leadership of any sort.
The only possible answer to the societal illnesses is returning to His pure Word – following His guidelines, and His truth. That can only happen in a community of fellow believers that can show others what it is to be set-apart by his love.
I love the book of Ruth.
cjlieben wrote, “For her to ask if any of those in the photo are ‘natives’ is condensending.”
I hurt. I hurt you and I’m so sorry for sounding racist. Please please forgive me. I didn’t see “color” or “lack of color.”
I am also hurt by your immediate, hostile reaction toward me instead of walking away from what I posted, trying to think about the comment in a positive light, and coming back to ask questions to clarify my statement. Shouldn’t we be more careful in assuming things and how we treat each other?
I apparently worded my question wrong. What I was responding to in regard to the photo was THE DRESS. Of course I know that South Africa has “white” skinned people… and various “shades” of other colors as well. (BTW, one of my most precious friends in the world was from the Ethiopian bush; yep, she was a beautiful black. She was my WHITE cousin’s wife.)
You assumed that all I saw was “white” when I expected to see “black.” I was referring to the western-like dress and setting. This picture actually looks like it could have been taken at one of our town hall meetings!
Warren, from western Canada (we live very near there in the U.S. and our culture and customs are very similar) explained the term “native” for me very clearly. To me, “native” always has an extra measure of respect due.
Again, please forgive me and let’s move on. Racism is of satan. God loves people. Amen.
Daria, I ask you to forgive me. Here (in SA) you are expected to be “on-guard” so to speak. I was to quick to act on your post. I am sorry.
We have the most amazingly beautiful country, but the current dispensation is at times unbareable. The best is that I was raised by a black lady (‘live-in nanny’ would be your term) that worked for my parents as they were working most of the time. She retired after 27 years’ service. She will always be part of me. I am telling you this, as the image that is portrayed to the world of white people in SA is of racists. I am not a racist. I only realized around my senior years in high school what the effects of apartheid was. A black people were part of my life, I never thought any differently.
But, now my generation (30-somethings) is being held accountable for something we did not have any part in.
Well, that said. I am sorry. My immediate reaction was to justify, again, why I belong. Forgive me.
cjlieben,
You are forgiven. I will be praying that YHVH will give you His supernatural strength to be strong under this evil you live in daily. HOW WONDERFUL, and ironic, that your nanny was black. I bet you learned a ton from her. WHAT A SYMBOL of healing that was!
I will tell you that we in America have racism, too. Human nature is wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). To have a right Spirit in people, they (we) MUST serve YHVH… there’s no other way.
Here, in America, some blacks blame the whites for slavery (I personally didn’t have a thing to do with that evil but I am blamed. Nonsense. Some whites hate people with black skin. Wicked. Native American Indians blame me for taking away their land and way of life… nonsense. Some “whites” hate Indians…and on and on the depraved condition of the human race goes.
Yet, we have THE ONE, ALL-POWERFUL, ALL-LIVING, FORGIVING GOD Who longs to fellowship with us. Now, THAT IS AMAZING!!!
Thank you