Rules of Engagement
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? Micah 6:8 NASB
Require – Has YHVH gotten your attention? Has His announcement riveted your interest? Do you really, truly want to know what God demands? Or are you content to keep going in your own direction, making up the rules of spiritual engagement according to your inner voice of the “Spirit”? How’s that working out? Feel like you’re right on target? Absolutely confident that you are doing exactly what God wants? Executing precisely the orders for today? Never finding anything in Scripture that might challenge your spiritual assumptions?
The Hebrew verb darash covers a lot of territory. “To seek with care, to inquire, to require, to demand (recompense).” Of course, you realize that this verb is the root of midrash. Perhaps we need to comprehend that midrash is not simply optional elucidation. Midrash contains elements of demands. It just depends on how deeply you look and how open you are to have your heart melted.
But back to the story. One of the most important differences between our Greek-Roman culture and the ancient Near-Eastern culture of the Hebrews is the understanding of “law.” As we have discovered before, law (nomos) for Romans is restriction; necessary for the smooth operation of society, but nevertheless viewed as limitations on one’s personal freedom. For Romans and Greeks, law is the opposite of freedom. Law demands compliance for the good of the many, but it necessarily stands opposed to my individual desires. Not so in Hebraic thought. For the Hebrew, law (torah) is freedom! Why? Because “law” (torah) instructs me precisely how to live in accordance with the will of God. It therefore frees me from anxiety, confusion, concern, distraction and misdirection. I know what to do because God tells me what to do. I am free of all those questions that otherwise haunt me when I do not know for sure what to do. With this in mind, when YHVH tells us what is required, He is not laying down restrictions. He is giving us the road to freedom. He is telling us exactly what is needed in order to be at peace with the universe and in alignment with His purposes.
Why, then, do you refuse His requirements? Why, then, do you claim that His instructions for the Jews are not applicable to you? Why, then, do you select what fits your cultural conveniences and leave out the rest of His torah? Who persuaded you that YHVH changed His mind about what brings peace to the soul? That He told Micah one thing and Sha’ul something else? Is there more than one universe to live in? More than one world that is our home? More than one God who created it all? If He gave instructions for freedom to His children for two thousand years before the crucifixion, do you really think He altered all those instructions after the crucifixion? Why would He?
What is required of us is straightforward. It has been clearly, carefully, concretely revealed. It has never changed. So why are you wandering around looking for another answer?
Topical Index: require, darash, midrash, torah, nomos, law, Micah 6:8
So, Skip, pray tell, what are those specific instructions from the Torah? Whatever happened to what Jesus said about “Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, strength and mind” and Love your neighbor as yourself”? Do not these comprise the entire Law, as Jesus said?
Yeshua’s response to the question was two-fold. First he reminded the man of the Shema, something that man already knew. Then he attached the passage from Leviticus, not part of the daily Shema. On these two HANG all the rest of the Torah. Your suggestion that these two COMPRISE the rest is ambiguous. You could mean that these two REPLACE the rest or you could mean, as Yeshua does, that these two SUMMARIZE the rest. If you mean REPLACE, then you stand in opposition to rabbinic teaching (and Yeshua is definitely NOT opposing rabbinic teaching on this point) and you stand in opposition to Paul’s summary (using Habakkuk). Furthermore, you would have to explain why Yeshua and Paul both maintained a completely Torah observant lifestyle. If you mean SUMMARIZE, then the answer is obvious. A summary is not a replacement. The man who asked the question certainly realized this since he would have been quite familiar with the corpus of Moses.
To follow up on what Skip wrote, I now view the two greatest commandments as being chapter headings, or the main points in an outline. Under each of the two greatest commandments you will find the rest of the Torah, which explains HOW to love YHWH, and HOW to love your neighbor.
To not love the Lord my God with all my heart, and with all my soul, and to not love my neighbor as myself, is sin. Fracture from One. Yeshua prayed that we be rejoined to the commonwealth of Heaven, under the Father, even as He was. Back to One.
BUT, what is love? What comprises relationship? Be careful! The devil can be found in the details! I cannot generate love. Looking back over my life, so many times when I THOUGHT I knew what love was, I was so wrong! Paul says that he didn’t either. He did not know how to identify the ways in his life that were falling short of the mark, without the Law. If we do not look to the Law to define love, we will not know how to define what is not love.
Yes, the summary of the Law is to love in all dimensions, but I still cannot generate love, nor do I know what it looks like in each and every circumstance. I still need not only that Law to point the Way, but I also need the Holy Spirit to guide me into the specific application of that Way, as well as to give me the Love I need to accomplish that Way. I need the Life of Yeshua through His Spirit in me to obey that Law, that Way. The Way has not changed, as Love has not changed; neither has the human changed. We still need sign posts and fences (Torah) and divine Fuel in the tank to reach the Destination. We still need it all.
Walking in the Spirit. That has confounded me much over the years viewing it from my Evangelical surroundings and influences. My Campus Crusade for Christ upbringing has weighed heavily, yet, still confusingly over my understanding and practice. (The Trinity issue included.)
It seems my “spiritual inner voice” attempting to sync with YHWH’s “Spirit” has been an ethereal dance of my own making mostly. Actually, upon closer and deeper reflection, my spirit walking has been somewhat of an attempt to align myself with my version, or my peers version of obedience to YHWH. That version being highly influenced by the paradigms observed.
I am moving toward the notion that walking in the Spirit is less me creating and sculpting my version of what I think obedience looks like and more just doing what is simply expressed in the text of the Tanach/Apostolic writings. That is, once I dig, discover and understand what the actual text says rather than the filtered, styled and molded version of my particular translation and denomination. What a task!
Yet, in the few answers I’ve discovered so far, the reality of obedience or walking in His Spirit is less the magical and mysterious version I’ve been struggling with and more straight out doing of those things that YHWH delineates in His instructions. It seems the task requires focused and straight forward effort to understand the actual text sans the less than adequate paradigmatic interpretation I have been enveloped in. Again, what a task.
Walking in the garden might entail more than just steps. It might involve serious listening and probing questions attempting to grasp a real relationship with our Elohim. As YHWH walks, I follow, continually asking and probing for understanding. As YHWH walks (illustrated for me via biblical texts) I yearn and strive to learn and mimic His ways (again viewed through torah.) I’m afraid I fail to persist in my search, giving up prematurely thus remaining immature in my view of Him. Embarrassingly, I fall back on the easier path of commentaries, folklore or peer opinion.
Frankly, most of my life has been a pitiful attempt and half-baked efforts to project a ‘holy’ life. Pfffft.
What a joke, actually!
It would help if I c(w)ould fully grasp and make my own the reality that His instructions (torah) are paths to freedom and real life. Instead of fighting against it, wouldn’t it be simpler and more life-like to flow with His instructions.
Duh.
Paradigms are difficult to extract from oneself after being so minutely ingrained.
Thanks, Skip, and all, for helping me think through all this stuff.
Hi, Michael! Great to see your smiling face!!!
You wrote: I am moving toward the notion that walking in the Spirit is less me creating and sculpting my version of what I think obedience looks like and more just doing what is simply expressed in the text of the Tanach/Apostolic writings. That is, once I dig, discover and understand what the actual text says rather than the filtered, styled and molded version of my particular translation and denomination. What a task!
I’m right there with ya! The English translations of the Latin, etc translations of the Greek translations of the etc and then all the man-made stuff from Jews and Goyim make a mess out of the messages/teaching/commands of God to the first couple on this planet as well as to the chosen people of whom we are to be grafted in to.
However, I work hard to set aside the spider web of paradigms I am a product of and just plead with YHVH to teach me as He would teach a child. I desire deliverance for ALL false teaching. Maybe I don’t even need to be aware of all the nasty, man-made dross… I just need to melt into God’s Hand and ask that He remold me to what pleases Him.
Yep. I have found the more I uncover the more the other words in the Tanach/Apostolic Writings make sense. I’m working harder to uncover the original meaning. Slow work, but more substantial in just the little progress I’ve made thus far. Amazing.
THE INSTRUCTIONS HAVEN’T CHANGED.
BUT WE HAVE — THROUGH CHRIST!
Psalm 14: 1 says:
“There is none who does good.”
Ezra 9: 7 says:
“Since the days of our fathers to this day we have been
very guilty.”
Rm 3: 6 says:
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
Who, which one of us, does good, is not guilty,
and has not sinned? The Scriptures tell us there is One.
Only One.
Only One who fulfilled the Law.
It’s one thing to KNOW the Law.
It’s another to KEEP it.
Scripture tells us only One did.
Jn 1:29 says:
“The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said,
“Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
Scripture tells us about believing and new birth.
1 Jn 5: 1 says:
“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.”
1 Jn 5: 2-4 says:
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God
and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep
His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For
whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that
has overcome the world — our faith.”
Yes, He commands us to DO what He says. But we are able to do it
only because of what He has DONE for us.
Col 2: 9-12 says:
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete
in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the
body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him
in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the
working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”
And so, we walk
1 Jn 2: 5-6 says:
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought
himself to walk just as He walked.”
Skip, I agree with most of what you’ve said. However it’s clear to me that we differ concerning what parts of Torah are still applicable today. Rich, above, has captured the difference I see, we have changed because of Christ.
I’ve been dialoging with some people who like what you have to say. They just keep telling me “Live Torah!” without any further explanation. Maybe you can be more helpful. It sounds like you’re being really nice and consistent when you say the whole thing still applies, but it seems to me if we actually start discussing specifics, you probably pick and choose which parts you follow. My question is simply, how do you decide what parts are to be followed and which arent? What hermenuetic do you use for understanding which parts to follow and which are no longer relevant? I know that sounds ridiculous, but take an honest look at the Torah and yourself before you just repeat the “Live Torah” mantra.
Here’s an excerpt of what I wrote in dialog with them.
“So, what parts of Torah or “Hebrew practices” apply to believers today?
I consider Torah to be instructive to us, it is foundational for a biblical worldview (telling us how things were made to be, how things went wrong, and how God rescues us and lives with us). I also see OT law as helping us to see our sin, the ways we turn away from God. However, I do not believe that all of OT law is applicable. I eat bacon (Lev 11:7), wear cotton/polyester blend clothing (Lev 19:19), and there is no parapet around the roof of my house (Deut 22:8) – I do not believe that I am sinning against God’s law by doing these things, even though each one violates some part of OT law. In my understanding, I would saw that these things are still instructive to me (a parapet was important because people used their roof as another room of the house, and a parapet decreased the likelihood of someone falling off) so I should be concerned with the basic safety of my home and those who are in it. I also think that the NT demonstrates that some of these have been done away with, such as the ban on certain foods (Acts 10). I still find the moral aspects of the Law to be binding on us – the 10 commandments in particular are still relevant and I think that the New Testament regularly reinforces them (see Colossians 3, Ephesians 4-6, etc).”
I appreciate your reply and concern, but I think perhaps you have forced Torah into a legalist box in order to raise your objections. Let me explain. Certainly not ALL of Torah is applicable to ANY particular person, as Torah itself clearly states. Levites have different requirements than the others. Men and woman are not treated the same. Those who live in the land are different from those who do not. So, really, Torah comes down to what is applicable to me in my circumstances. When you actually go through the 613, as I have done, you will probably discover that there are only a dozen or so commandments that you are NOT doing (but could do) that actually apply to you. Most of the ones that apply to everyone (like “know that God is one”) are already part of your paradigm. So the real question is “If you are willing and able to accept all those commandments that you already recognize apply to you and that you do, why are you unwilling to accept and apply those few additional ones?” Like pork? Really, now, what is the problem with not eating pork? You like bacon. So what! If God asks you not to eat it, no matter WHAT the reason, are you still going to tell me that you don’t have to? And who are you to tell God that He was mistaken to restrict your diet?
Parapet? Yes, if you lived in an area where people regularly visit the roof, then it is required. But that only makes sense, doesn’t it? Why do you think this commandment is no longer applicable when you live in a house that does not have a FLAT roof and no one actually spends time on your roof?
Cotton and poly? When I read this commandment, it says NOTHING about polyester. Why do you think it prohibits the two together?
As for the “ban on certain foods,” your reference to Acts 10 lacks considerable exegetical understanding. Even Peter rejected the idea that it was about FOOD. Please refer to the lectures on Acts 10 given in Israel by Bob Gorelik and available on my web site.
I am afraid that in the end you still espouse the typical “10 commandments as moral law” Christian tradition, a tradition which I find singularly unsupported by the text and the lives of those in the text. But, of course, the Christian Church wanted grace without law except for some kind of system to hold anarchy in check. I suggest that you seriously reconsider your exegesis based on the culture, history and language rather than on the theological propositions of the Church. In the end I think you will see that God’s instructions for living have not changed. What applies to you still applies to you even if you don’t understand WHY. The question is whether or not you are WILLING to do what God asks inspire of your own cultural bias in the West.
Just one more thing. Since orthodox Jews have been around this material a lot longer than Christians, and since nearly all of the original followers of Yeshua were Jews, don’t you think it is a bit odd that only the GENTILE early fathers of the Church proposed a removal of the law of Moses?
Jeff – Your questions are not new. I speculate that most of us who were raised learning Christian doctrine had those questions and were then answered (by the church) in a way to “maintain the party line”. In addition to what Skip has written I would recommend that you look at the teachings on ‘119ministries.com’ as a starting point. They have many video teachings (both short and long) that will address the particular points you raise. I don’t agree with everything that they teach, but that is the point. Each of us is responsible for testing what we are taught against the scriptures. We will not all agree, because none of us knows it all. Not knowing how you will receive all of the things you will read on Skip’s website or the 119ministries website, I will only say one thing. If what you find out leads you away from the teachings of the church and your traditions, and you become anxious or fearful, know that you are on the right path. As I read the scriptures, much of what we are commanded to do will make us uncomfortable in our flesh.
Hey, Jeff, great comments. I have been pondering these same thoughts for quite some time now. If all the Law is to be observed today, then why do those who live by it not sacrifice animals and live strictly by the 600 plus regulations of the Law? I must take my wife to an appointment right now, but this is a discussion that needs to be brought up and dealt with so we can properly understand it.
Later.
Amadeus – As I wrote to Jeff, above, look at ‘119ministries.com’. They will approach your questions from a new perspective that perhaps you have never heard before.
Jordan–Thank you for website. I will check it out.
Wow…in a sad way…so many human words and so much call for division. Even as Adam’s body, formed by God’s very Hands, began as perfectly as any body ever created, it had no life until God breathed into his nostrils…and he became a living being. Those are my words..these are Sha’ul’s.
“You have no excuse, whoever you are, passing judgment; for when you judge someone else, you are passing judgment against yourself; since you who are judging do the same things he does. We know that God’s judgment lands impartially on those who do such things; do you think that you, a mere man passing judgment on others who do such things, yet doing them yourself, will escape the judgment of God? Or perhaps you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance and patience; because you don’t realize that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to turn from your sins. But by your stubbornness, by your unrepentant heart, you are storing up anger for yourself on the Day of Anger, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed; for He will pay back each one according to his deeds. To those who seek glory, honor and immortality by perseverance in doing good, He will pay back eternal life. But to those who are self seeking, who disobey the truth and obey evil, he will pay back wrath and anger. Yes, He will pay back misery and anguish to every human being who does evil, to the Jew first, then to the Gentile; but glory and honor and shalom to everyone who keeps doing what is good, to the Jew first, then to the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who have sinned outside the framework of Torah will die outside the framework of Torah; and all who have sinned within the framework of Torah will be judged by Torah. For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God’s sight. For whenever Gentiles, who have no Torah, do naturally what the Torah requires, then these, even though they don’t have Torah, for themselves ARE Torah! For their lives show that the conduct the Torah dictates is written in their hearts. Their consciences also bear witness to this, for their conflicting thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them on a day when God passes judgment on people’s inmost secrets. (According to the Good News as I proclaim it, He does this through the Messiah Yeshua.) But if you call yourself a Jew and rest on Torah and boast about God and know His will and give your approval to what is right, because you have been instructed from the Torah, and if you have persuaded yourself that you are a guide to the blind, a light in the darkness, an instructor for the spiritually unaware and a teacher of children, since in the Torah you have the embodiment of knowledge and truth; then, you who teach others, don’t you teach yourself? Preaching, Thou shat not steal, do you steal? Saying, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, do you commit adultery? Detesting idols, do you commit idolatrous acts? You who take such pride in Torah, do you, by disobeying the Torah, dishonor God?-as it says in the Tanakh, “For it is because of you that God’s Name is blasphemed by the Goyim!” For circumcision is indeed of value if you do what Torah says, but if you a transgressor of Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision! Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won’t his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? Indeed, the man who is physically uncircumcised but obeys the Torah will stand as a judgment on you who have had a b’rit-milah and have Torah written out but violate it! For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly; true circumcision is not only external and physical. On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God.” Romans 2 In the end it is still His Breath of Life.
Hi Marsha,
I am not sure what you had in mind by reminding us of the text of Romans 2. Would you please explain?
Sorry if it sounded frustrated…overall, I am today-lots going on..I did, because of this question: “If He gave instructions for freedom to His children for two thousand years before the crucifixion, do you really think He altered all those instructions after the crucifixion? Why would He?”
It had the “sound” of an argument – old arguments I’m really tired of-probably wasn’t – I apologize- I’m probably a little sensitive today-and I’M judging everybody unfairly!! (Gosh, do I do that?!) I’ll try to explain this way. He did not have to alter or compromise the reality of Who He is/was – He gave us the opportunity in a way that only He could give – a perfect and complete union with Himself in the form of Messiah. As Suzanne also mentioned…there always seems to be NO RELIEF in finding something, anything to bring an argument into the center of attention….and that is hard to understand…when that alone is wounding to His Heart. His Heart wants peace not contention. Paul, in his letter to Ephesus, explains that unity.
“He Himself is our shalom – He has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us by destroying in His own Body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with Himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, and in order to reconcile to God BOTH in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus killing in Himself that enmity. Also, when He came, he announced as good news shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, news that through Him we BOTH have access in one Spirit to the Father.” As Father watches over the earth there were many Goyim who had no Torah yet loved Him and wanted to know Him…He never turns anyone away..there had to be a way to bring in ALL men..as John wrote in 3:16. As Suzanne also alluded to – NOTHING in the boundaries of God’s Heart was compromised in the life Messiah showed us to live-nothing-it is just now presented in a more complete and higher Form-His Life. If we choose to be one with Him-accept the gift offered – give ourselves to Him as He did to us – His Blood covers us..if we reject Him then there is nothing left-no law of any kind – because all He is asking of us is in His Son. His Son was sent to the Jew first and that desire of His Heart has not changed – I believe with all of my heart – we will yet see that one new man that loves Him, serves Him, desires Him above all and brings His will to earth as it is in heaven…with no arguments and no judging. I’ll do better too. : )
“Why, then, do you refuse His requirements? Why, then, do you claim that His instructions for the Jews are not applicable to you? Why, then, do you select what fits your cultural conveniences and leave out the rest of His torah?”
I would start with this most recent experience:
The local Chabad rabbi and I have had a couple of conversations the most recent at a Starbucks earlier this year. He flat out told me to not keep some specific parts of Torah such as: Sabbath, Pesach, Succot, and dietary. Without using the word or concept of Noahide he encouraged me to view compliance to Torah in that way. I don’t think I should just throw away the words of an orthodox rabbi, and yes, I’m familiar with the distinctives of Chabad, because they conflict with the one-law teaching.
I would follow that up with a wonderful rabbi you introduced me/us to: Bob Gorelik. Bob is not a proponent of one-law. He teaches that the 613 are for Jews and the 7 are for gentiles.
So, if you’re saying that your position is so obvious that you can’t understand how anyone could actually believe anything else I would say that there are others with some background and authority who differ from you and are able to build their case quite well.
When I first began studying these things over seven years ago I leaned in the direction of one-law. I still am a bit unsettled on the subject but I now lean in the direction of being “non-one-law.” In part that is because I still see one-law advocates picking and choosing the laws that apply to them as you accuse others of in the quote above. Let me be specific.
Years ago I asked on this forum about others compliance with the laws of Niddah. My purpose in asking the question was not to be purient or weird or overly personal. My purpose, and it was a real inquiry, was to find out if people were setting women and men outside of their dwelling as Torah demands? Were they forcing men and women to live in the garage? In a tent in the back yard? Were they sending them off to a hotel? Other than you Skip no one replied. The subject itself is obviously intensely personal and invasive BUT it is Torah and if one-law advocates are telling me I am to keep Torah but are not themselves doing it then they are in my estimation just another in a long line of religious people who say one thing and do another and I’m done with that. I see in this exactly what you say about others above:
“…do you select what fits your cultural conveniences and leave out the rest of His torah?”
I would expand my question about Torah observance to certain capital offenses listed in Torah. As a one-law teacher do you advocate for the capital punishment of gays? That’s right there in the text, or do have a rationale for not advocating it? I’m not asking if you have done that or want to do that. I’m asking you a straight up question: do you believe that gays should be put to death? Yes or no? If no, are you advocating for capital punishment of gays in any kind of setting such as a restored Torah observant Israel?
The operative word is “should.”
The same question can be applied to other Torah commands as well. How about capital punishment of children who reach a certain level of disobedience?
IMO, it is easy for someone like yourself to poke others, as you have above, because they eat bacon. I’m waiting for a one-law proponent who truly practices what they preach and I haven’t found one among gentiles yet.
Personally I cut out pork and shellfish years ago but I do not see it as a requirement of gentiles.
I was shocked to read that Bob advocates a two law approach. Before I answer you, I will have to ask him. Who knows, maybe I have actually misunderstood him for years. But I kind of doubt it.
Hi Daniel,
I have had a chance to email Bob and got his reply just now. Here’s what he said:
Re: “One Law” – I am NOT an advocate of “One Law” theology the way it is typically presented (based upon the misapplication of various passages in the Torah that speak of it), i.e., that ALL GENTILES AND ALL JEWS HAVE AN EQUAL OBLIGATION TO OBSERVE ALL 613 COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH.
My view, cannot be put into one of the “boxes” typical of Christian and/or Messianic theology (which I consider to be pretty much one and the same).
1. The Torah is eternal and applies equally to all people in all times BUT this is NOT the same as saying that ALL 613 commandments apply equally to all people in all times because that is clearly NOT the case – even for Jews. I do NOT teach “that the 613 are for Jews” – they aren’t. There are laws for priests, laws for land-owners, laws for men, laws for women, laws for those living in the Land of Israel, etc. – if they do NOT ALL apply equally to ALL Jews, how much less must they apply equally to ALL gentiles.
2. In every place where the term “one law” is used in the Torah – it is in a reference to a specific principle of the Torah and not to the Torah generally. For example:
27″‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you. 30″‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31Because they have despised the LORD’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them'” (Num 15:27-31).
Notice that in v. 29 it says that the “one and same law applies to everyone.” Does it mean generally? No. It is specifically said to apply to those who “sin unintentionally.” In other words, if a Gentile who is CONNECTED TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL sins unintentionally, he (or she) is obligated to bring the same sacrifice in the same way as a Jewish member of the community. How do I know? Because of the antithetical parallel in v. 30 and the consequences for both Jews and Gentiles who “sins defiantly” – they are “CUT OFF FROM THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.”
Most Gentiles, including most Christians, are NOT now connected to the people of Israel and therefore have no obligation to offer their sacrifice for unintentional sin in the same way as does a member (be it Jew or Gentile) of the community of Israel. This statement is obviously rhetorical – since their is no Temple and sacrifices are no longer being offered – but the idea underlying the point is still valid.
All Gentiles are obligated to the commandments in the Torah that God have to Noah. The degree to which they are obligated to the ones that God gave to Israel depends on the degree to which they are connected to the people of Israel. That is the way it has always been.
And, in fact, no where in the Bible is a Gentile nation (or Gentiles generally) punished by God for not observing the Sabbath, or for eating trief, or for doing (or not doing) anything else that is the specific obligation of the people of Israel – unless of course, they are connected to the people of Israel. And, of course, Israel IS disciplined for doing (or not doing) these things because they DO have the obligation.
END OF COMMENT
So, I hope you can see that both Bob and I believe that Torah applies according to the conditions within the text. If you attach yourself to Israel, as Paul suggests by the use of “grafted in,” then you accept the obligations of Torah that would apply just as they would to any other Jew UNDER THE PROPER CIRCUMSTANCES. I have written elsewhere that Torah is not for everyone. It is not for those who refuse to be grafted in. This is why Torah by legislation (e.g. the current political debate over gay right or same sex marriage0. Passing a law does not make a nation Torah observant.
Now let’s see if I can answer some of your proposed ethical questions.
If you attach yourself to YHVH as a member of His chosen people, as a part of Israel as defined by the Tanakh, then, yes, homosexuality PRACTICED is a capital offense. Why? Because it stand in utter opposition to the will of YHVH expressed for His people. It defiles His sovereignty. I emphasize PRACTICE since it seems to me entirely possible for a man to be tempted by sexual attraction to another man without violating the prohibition. BUT, and this is important, this does NOT mean that the practice of homosexuality IN THE CULTURE OUTSIDE a full commitment to God’s revelation to Moses is also a capital offense. It might be, but since God doesn’t tell me it is, He will have to decide. What I know is that it is strictly prohibited WITHIN the community dedicated to YHVH.
We could say the same thing about your example of the totally rebellious child, although I would also point out that historically there is NO record of any member of the house of Israel ever being executed under this law. That should also tell you something about its intention since there are numerous cases of rebellion in the record.
The distinction between Mosaic law and the Noahide regulations is perhaps useful but does not seem to be used in any of the apostolic arguments. Acts 15 is clearly NOT a case of making this distinction. Later rabbinic development emphasizes the distinction but it does seem to have been employed in any of the record of the earliest communities (I think for the same reason that I articulated above).
So, the bottom line thus far in the discussion seems to be this: If you make the mistake of asserting the Torah applies to everyone, you will end up with equivocations and exceptions and lots of confusion. Torah does not apply to everyone. It applies to those who CHOOSE to live by it. Their ethnicity has no bearing on this CHOICE. Since God chose the Jews to exemplify this particular way of life as a testimony to His choosing, one could argue that Jews in particular have a greater obligation to live according to Torah, but Gentiles who attach themselves to the Jewish way of life are not someone exempted from the practice YHVH expects of His children. This, however, does not mean that ALL of Torah applies to any ONE individual since that is clearly NOT the case anywhere.
I hope that this begins to clear up some of the difficulties. It leaves you with the same question I asked. If God came to you and said, “Please, for my sake, don’t eat pork” would you still claim that it doesn’t matter?
As a stated in my original post I stopped eating pork and shellfish many years ago.
The critical issue to you and Bob is the degree to which a gentile has “attached” or “connnected” themselves to Israel which brings up questions:
Are you saying that gentile Christians are not grafted in to Israel? Are you saying that when Paul says gentiles are grafted in to Israel this is only for some vs the common Christian teaching that all believers are grafted in? Is a person who has not done this not connected to YHVH in this life and the world to come?
How does a person know that they have done this? Is there a ceremony? (I am not being sarcastic) Is there some biblical way this is recognized? Who does a person go to for this?
Beyond that, the at-large Jewish community is not going to recognize any of this. With whom does a person fellowship? ….and I mean face to face… let me get in my car and drive to where you are so I can help you fellowship.
In my latest conversation with the local Chabad rabbi he made no equivocation that unless I was halachically Jewish, to his satisfaction, that I should not keep Sabbath and the holidays and kosher, etc. It seemed to me that he would know. Am I wrong in that assumption?
Skip, I do appreciate your time and thoughts.
But determining the attachment to Israel is easy. Do you keep the commandments (obviously, those that actually apply)? If you do, then you are grafted in. If you don’t, then how can you claim to be a part of Israel which is DEFINED as those set apart by the commandments?
As for your Chabad rabbi, would you expect him to say anything else after 2000 years of theological development in reaction to Christian persecution? What he says might be helpful but it is not definitive. What we need to know is what was the community like in the first century when Paul pleaded for unity. Now, if you decided that for you Chabad affiliation was the way to go, then I suggest you would NOT be accepted until you embraced their version of compliance. If that is true today, what makes you think it wasn’t true for the community of the first century. They had expectations as well, as Acts 15 clearly says.
Bob Gorelik on CD 5 of his Galatians series is where I heard it. However, I missed this statement: “…whether this is true or not is irrelevant…” This immediately preceeded talking about Gentiles and the 7 vs 613 commandments question. I heard Bob out of context. He doesn’t make any definitive statements about Gentiles and Torah. In this section of CD 5 he is talking about the common view among Jews in the late second temple period that Gentiles were only obligated to the 7.
My apologies to Bob for misstating his position.
No problem, Daniel. I am glad to hear you were able to check on it. Why not come to Israel with Bob and me in October (there are 2 openings) so we can discuss all of this in person?
Shalom Skip, Bob is a wonderful teacher, and has such clarity in his teachings.
You introduced us to him through your Israeli tour videos. Thank you.
Wishing you and yours, and all the beloved family here- Chag Sameach Pesach!
I would also like to point out that, according to scripture, a “restored Torah observant Israel” will only occur after Yeshua returns to rule. It seems clear at that time we will find out exactly what He meant when He stated that “until Heaven and Earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall drop from the law”.
The argument as to whether YHWH has one body of laws for all, or if jews and gentiles have different rules to play by is an interesting question. I have looked at it this way. In the US we all have to follow the body of laws that has been created to regulate the life of the community. So in that sense there is one law. However, since I am not a farmer, I do not “actively” adhere to laws the farmers must follow regarding how to properly tag livestock. This is not different from the biblical nation of Israel and the Torah. We know that Yeshua was sinless. He achieved this by actively taking part in those portions of the law that he was required to observe (Shabbat, Feasts of YHWH), ignoring those he could not actively observe (laws pertaining to cleanliness of a woman after childbirth), and refusing to take part in those portions for which he was not qualified (i.e. sacrifices being performed only by Levite priests).
In the New Testament (oh, how I am disturbed by that name), we are told that we are former gentiles and are now part of the Commonwealth of Israel. How odd would it be for someone to emigrate to another country and then refuse to observe the laws of that new country, but instead continue to observe the laws of the former country? The issue that we face is that it is difficult, or impossible, to observe many of the “laws” in the absence of an actual country that follows the body of laws that we are attempting to observe. As Skip pointed out, there are actually very few of the laws that we are responsible for, and even then we are only trying to follow them as best as we can, given limited understanding and circumstantial limitations. Sacrifices and corporal punishment are the two examples given by 21st century believers, mostly because they fly in the face of our oh-so-advanced sensibilities. However, it is very clear that these can only be carried out according to the biblical mandate when jurisdictional requirements have been met, i.e. no temple – no sacrifice, no levitical priests – no one to rule on certain issues. We should strive to understand Torah and follow it to the greatest degree possible, as it does reveal the heart and desire of YHWH, and one day we, or our children, may have to observe it. There is also great reward for being obedient.
One more word picture that I have found to be instructive. If a portion of a major highway in my state is destroyed, then logically I am unable to observe the speed limit on that portion of the road. However, the speed limit law remains “on the books”, ready to be enforced once that portion of the road is rebuilt. Of course, the speed limit law can only be enforced by someone with authority (i.e. a police officer). Absence of the road or police officer means that the law won’t be enforced. It does not mean that it does not exist. It also does not mean that I, as a citizen have freedom to ignore the law, after all, it was created for the safety of myself and others. How much more so for YHWH’s body of laws? After all, he did tell the tribes of Israel that he was giving them a body of laws that would make them the envy of all the nations around them. They are not a bad set of laws because the PEOPLE can’t follow them correctly. The law remained perfectly fine. It was the PEOPLE that needed help. Enter Yeshua to the rescue. He does expect obedience from us however. It would be impossible to live like Yeshua (which is what the church tells us to do), without actually doing what Yeshua did (stuff like observing the Torah).
Paradigms can be so frustrating.
Great analogy. Thanks. If only others would use this kind of logic rather than the “I’m a Christian so I am automatically grafted in” stuff.
Why do we let people make this such a controversy? If you love the Lord, why would you try to find a way around His commandments when keeping them is a demonstration of your love? Stop worrying so much about the mitzvot you cannot keep — because of cultural, legal, and law-of-the-land restrictions — and focus on those which you CAN keep, not just those that you WANT to keep. Do you really think YHVH is ever going to say “bad job, you should have eaten pork and changed the day of Shabbat?”
A good point
I don’t think we “let” anyone make this a controversy. The controversy comes for each person when they are faced with breaking out of their paradigm. It is not as simple as saying “be obedient” to what YHWH has commanded. Everyone thinks that they are being obedient, as far as their understanding of scripture is defined. Remember, there is no sacrifice for unintentional sin until you know that you have sinned. This protects a lot of Christian believers who have been taught lies and struggle to understand the truth.
How is asking questions something others have to “let” them do? This is issue is settled for you. It is not for me.
Daniel — I appreciate that it is not settled for you, but that was my point about allowing questions to become a controversy. There are two ways to ask questions: either your question has a truly simple purpose of gathering information, and as such, does not come with presuppositions; OR you are presenting a case, and the purpose of your question is to prove the other person wrong. I love true questions and I hope that is your heart here.
Yeah, that!
I wasn’t able to find Bob Gorelik’s lecture on your site. I did find a reference he made to Acts 10 in another post on Acts 15. I know that Peter’s immediate use of this is in regards to the Gentiles who come and visit him, however Peter is told to rise up and eat from among the unclean animals. I think this applies to food too!
I know the other examples I gave to be a bit more ridiculous, though these are ones that people often bring up when trying to wrestle with meaning of the law for believers today.
I will have to say that reading this discussion is making me want to research further, and think more deeply about how I see the Torah functioning in the life of the Christian. However, I am not interested in the oddly Jewish practices advocated by Skip and others. This largely seems like a distraction from the good news of new life in Jesus.
May God bless you.
Bob’s detailed discussion of Acts 10, which is not about food, is found on the video lessons from Israel, the first series I believe and also perhaps the second series.
I drew my conclusions about Bob’s views on this subject from one of his audio teaching series. I think it was on Galatians but I’m not certain. I have that series cut to my phone so if I can find it today I’ll repost how to locate it in the series and of course listen to it again to see if I took it out of context.
Jeff – I consider the critical portion of the Acts 10 dialogue to be the use of the words “common” and “unclean”. YHWH was not changing the law regarding what is considered “unclean” (directly from Torah), but he was telling Peter to reject the notion that something created by YHWH could be considered “common” simply because a group of men decided it to be. Peter states that he has not eaten anything common or unclean. YHWH responds by stating that Peter should not call something common. Notice that YHWH does not address Peter’s reference to anything that is unclean. Interestingly, if you search the underlying Greek words for common and unclean you will find that there has been some chicanery on the part of translators in Romans 14 (when talking about what is “unclean”). From what I have learned at our local fellowship, historically, it seems that there was a public debate during the early first century as regards what was considered “common”. Interesting stuff, and completely ignored or unknown by the mainstream (and not so mainstream) Christian church.
Jeff – Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be “oddly Jewish practices”?
Jeff – You mention the “good news of new life”. Have you ever considered that in the book of Hebrews we are told that the “good news” received by the apostles was also given to the Nation of Israel, while still in the desert, and that their error was that they did not mix it with faith? What do you think that this “good news” was? I always wondered about it, since there is no direct reference to the coming Messiah in the desert. Now I tend to think that the “good news” was the revelation of “how to live your best life now” (pardon the phrase), in accordance with the ways of YHWH. Remember, Yeshua calls himself “the way, the truth and the life”, all of which are also names for the Torah found in the Psalms.
Daniel Gruber convincingly argues that the “good news” is the demonstration of God’s Kingdom on earth. This “good news” is a constant theme of all Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, and does not depend on some event that bifurcates human history. See Gruber’s book, Copernicus and the Jews (I have a couple of copies left if you are interested)
I wonder why the Sabbath is not part of the Laws from Noah. In Genesis 2 it reads that God rested on that day, he blessed it and sanctified it. Then in Exodus 16, prior to the giving of the ten commandments we read “the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD” ?
Good point since Israel is judged harshly for not keeping Sabbath.
Personally, this discussion right here is perhaps the single most helpful thing for me this site does. I want to thank everybody who is engaging, too. Thank you! This discussion is so long overdue! Please don’t stop!
Talking ABOUT love all day long is like everybody agreeing that weather exists. The nuts and bolts about what the weather is actually doing, however, happens to be much more useful if you are heading out the door to travel over a mountain pass or to plow a field. If we are going to be successful lovers, I think we need ways to be able to think ABOUT the Law, which is a picture of HOW to love. At least, I do!
I agree, Laurita.
I do appreciate the back and forth and don’t view it as “argument” of disunity but argument in efforts to think through things that have largely been seen through the mud of paradigmatic differences.
For so long I have been blindly following whatever thus proceedeth out of the mouths of the preachers/pastors that I am in constant learning mode of even how to ask questions and find points of contrast. You have to begin to understand something to grasp it’s implications and consequences. One has to step out of the box to examine things critically. It is definitely challenging but, Oh So, fulfilling.
And one must have the guts to actually challenge what one holds so dear. Otherwise, the fragile state might not be exposed. Again, it is a real challenge, but a worthwhile one.
Amen!
Ditto
What does grafted in look like? Does the wild branch still live by the “law” of the wild olive tree? Wouldn’t that be impossible? Doesn’t Paul say something about the “root and fatness” (i.e. law) of the olive tree?
Yes he does. The wild branch depends for its life on the root of the real tree. It does not have an autonomous existence. Paul always asserts that the Gentiles who come into the commonwealth do so by adopting the way of life of the root.
Of course, NO ONE lives like the root in the first century. Both Christianity and Judaism have undergone enormous changes. But our obligation to Torah hasn’t changed. God’s instructions haven’t changed. All that’s changed is the way we understand those instructions in the culture and community of our world today. Some things are radically different (e.g. no temple) but some things are exactly the same (one God). We are called to work it all out with a commitment to what the Master did.
Hello Skip! Thank you for your insights! They have been so helpful to me! My frustration is how do I do/learn what my Jewish brothers and sisters already know because they understand their Jewish roots and the Hebrew Scripture. I’ve grown up “Greek” and “Gentile” and “Foreign”. I feel like a Ruth in need of a Naomi/Boaz to help me understand. Yes, I read the Scriptures, but have always been taught a “Greek” interpretation. Looking through “Greek” glasses. It’s all “Greek to me” and I’m wanting it to be “Hebrew”! I hope I’m making sense. I just feel at square one and not sure how to start this journey of learning of the REAL God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! Any road signs you can give me?
We all feel the same frustration. So, we go to Israel. We listen to rabbis. We read Jewish material (selectively). We study the history of our own religious development. We ask questions all the time. We dialogue. We pray. And we wait.
I’ve been to Israel. I think that’s where my own awakening started. But what Rabbis? What material? It may seem weird, but I do not even know where to start there. The Jewish world is rather foreign for me.
Pirke Avot will get you started with the rabbis. Then listen to Bob Gorelik’s material (www.eshavbooks.org). Then start again in Genesis with Nahum Sarna’s JPS Torah Commentary. A world awaits.
Thank you so much, Sir! I have tears in my eyes right now at the feeling of relief and hope that your response has prompted! ☺️
Might I suggest, Heather, to take your time and enjoy the journey. It isn’t a journey of a day or two, or even a week or two, but one that just continues on ’til morning, second, third, fourth star to the right. And so on . . .
🙂
Almost a decade ago, I pretty much swooshed everything off my doctrinal table and began an arduous but delightful journey of re-examining all that I had learned over my life time. I would say I now have only a handful of ‘things’ on my table compared to before. However, in those fewer and more thought through items, my life, somehow is more peaceful, deliberate, simple and delightful. Of course, Skip’s leadings have helped tremendously.
Please share with us as you journey. I, for one, would be excited to hear about your walk from this point.