My questions for discussion are, “How does YHWH interpret these and what ought to be the manner in which we regard them?” Are they idols, the works of men’s hands? Were they created to honor the One True Elohim of Israel, if that is even something that He would approve (and what about the temple of David/Solomon)? Or are they created to honor the elohim of a form of religion of man who deny the power thereof? Are we to look upon them with amazement for their grandness (Is that not humanism – the idolatry of man)? Are they just works of art to be enjoyed for their “beauty”, for YHWH is an Elohim of beauty and He created man in His image to create beauty? Or are they to be looked on as an editorial of the people of that culture at that time and evoke a sense of grief and contempt for the spirit of delusion that was sent to them because they did not receive a love of the truth? Is it good to capture these images if they are being used for educational purposes regarding that which is prohibited by YHWH? And is it acceptable that we promote these images without editorial writings and even sell them for profit?
some of my thoughts. As I travel the world teaching about the God of Israel, I discover more and more that people attempt to worship God within their own culture. I grant that they often do not have the “correct” biblical worldview, but most of the time that isn’t their fault. They grew up with centuries of mis-information. What’s most important is that they WANT to worship God, even if their education within the Church was framed by those who deliberately (or not) chose to ignore that call of YHVH. So here we have examples of people who really did dedicate themselves to honoring God in the way that they understood Him. Their experience was an emotional one, just as it is for me when I see the awesome beauty of their efforts. One can hardly enter a cathedral like this and not be overwhelmed by the presence of God, unless of course, you simply see it as syncretism and refuse to accept the emotional involvement of these (misinformed) believers. I think God is a lot more patient than we tend to be. We focus on being RIGHT rather than asking what it would have been like to spend 300 years building such monuments to the worship of God. Yes, I know all the bad history, but I’m not sure that it erases the inspiration of those who actually created these masterpieces. Anyway, I tend to find more and more signs of God’s involvement in ALL the ways men and women try to worship Him. I realize that isn’t very orthodox, but then maybe God has been very tolerant of me over the course of my lifetime of changing and I need to extend that same patience to others.
Thanks for your thoughts, Skip. I hear all you’re saying and have shared the same thoughts and affections, and even still do, in small part, whether it is right or not, I just do. However, I’m not finding that this all quite settles with me now. For me, it’s not so much about judging others about it all, but about me knowing His judgements about it all for me, as I try not to forget His mercy and justice in the meanwhile. I’m only trying to seek the truth and invite, even exhort, others to consider the same questions, even as I appreciate so much that you do.
I think about idolatry being one of the greatest concerns, knowing Him and His worth, and worshiping Him in the way that is most true to what He has revealed of Himself and His ways. And not participating in the ways of those who practice idolatry.
And I remember the words of Messiah – “As Yeshua was going out of the Temple, one of His disciples said to Him, ‘Teacher, look! What stones and what buildings!’ Yeshua said to him, ‘You see these great buildings? Not one stone here will be left upon another. Every one will be torn down!’” [Mar 13:1-2]
I know this was probably, for the most part, about what was to come and that He even said “these great buildings”. However, I can’t help but also think He probably was not saying HE thought the buildings were great, but that He was referencing His disciple’s view that they were great and that He was probably also commenting that because they were just stones upon stones, the work of the hands of men, and that they wouldn’t for long even be buildings, that they were not worthy of being ascribed greatness and being adored, regardless of the “worshipful” intent of those who built them.
I think may be all, and not “buildings”, that is worthy of being ascribed greatness – “Destroy this Temple,” Yeshua answered them, “and in three days I will raise it up.” The Judean leaders then said to Him, “Forty-six years this Temple was being built, and You will raise it up in three days?” But He was talking about the temple of His body. [Joh 2:19-21]
I remember laying on the ground at the base of the steel arch in St. Louis and considering how “great and awesome” was that building. And then I saw its shadow, and then I was in awe of the “greatness of the sun” that was responsible for the shadow of this “great building”. Then I “saw” the greatness and the awesomeness of the Creator of both the sun and man who created that structure, and I realized, there was really no greatness at all in the steel arch there in St. Louis, for the greatness of our Creator so out shines any work of the hands of men that I must ask myself, “Is there any work of man worthy to be considered “great and awesome”.
In the first use of this phrase in Scripture, it is written, “You should not be terrified of them, since Adonai your God is in your midst—a great and awesome God.” [Deu 7:21]
And then following in the same passage it is written, “The carved images of their gods you are to burn with fire. You are not to covet the silver or gold on them or take it for yourself—or you could be snared by it, for it is an abomination to Adonai your God. You are not to bring an abomination into your house—for you, like it, will be a banned thing. You must utterly detest and utterly abhor it, for it is set apart for destruction.” [Deu 7:25-26]
Then Nehemiah said, “Adonai, God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps the covenant and lovingkindness with those who love Him and keep His mitzvot…” [Neh. 1:5]
And lastly, Joel prophesied, “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and awesome day of Adonai comes.” [Joe 3:4]
I will trust in His mercy, but I desire more to know how to love Him and keep His mitzvot.
If such “art” and “buildings” are being offered in worship and are idols, then maybe we ought to be very concerned about what is “right”, unless my view is “wrong”.
“Therefore, my dearly loved ones, flee from idolatry. I speak as to sensible people—judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless—isn’t it a sharing of Messiah’s blood? The bread which we break—isn’t it a sharing of Messiah’s body? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body—for we all partake of the one bread. Consider physical Israel. Those who eat the sacrifices—aren’t they partners in the altar? What am I saying then—that an idol sacrifice is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I’m saying that what the pagans sacrifice is to demons and not to God, and I don’t want you to become partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.” [Co 10:14-21]
Anyways, I thank you, Skip, for your service through studying and teaching the word and for the opportunity to discuss such things with you here. Your Hebrew Word Study does often reprove, correct, and train in righteousness. It does often convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. It does often reveal the things of Messiah and help to lead into all the truth. And it does often comfort. All helping to fulfill all the promises of the purposes of both the Scriptures and the Ruach HaKodesh.
Great reply. As you have probably discerned, I am also on the journey to find Him, and in the process discovering that my prior restrictions have been roadblocks to see ALL that He is doing in other’s lives. But there is still the true path– and mercy. May we find that same mercy that He has shown.
Even today, I am giving thanks for Him having already removed some of my “roadblocks” so that I could now fully rejoice in what I was already seeing, encouraging, supporting, and rejoicing in, that which YHWH has been doing in the life of one of my brothers who today testified by writing to us, his family, that he had “come out of the darkness and into the light”, that just because he didn’t have an attraction for women all his life, he didn’t have to believe the lie that he had to be homosexual. After 20 years of being deceived and having much pain in the struggle, I have been watching YHWH leading him out and now into the path of righteousness.
This is a little of what he wrote in a message he entitled, “You Shall Know the Truth” –
He said, “The past almost 20 yrs I had allowed myself to believe this lie and it has been a serious waste. I have lost the person and soul I once was. I miss that person and wish to God I never went down that path. I am now totally free from the past lifestyle and not wanting to return to it. I no longer support anything that is connected with it and believe I lived in sin. I have confessed this to God and am asking Him daily to do for me what I can not do for myself. The ‘anointing’ that I seek is to BE the person I was created to be and LOVE him and allow him to do what I know is what I do well and best, (to be single and) to do the type of job I have been doing for the past 30 plus year.” (He nurses sick and disabled people in their homes.)
Yes, it is good to remove the restrictions that are “roadblocks to seeing ALL that He is doing in other’s lives”. Then we can better co-labor with Him and share in the joy of what He’s doing in a much greater way. I must say that I also believe that some of the reproof, correction, and training in righteousness that I have spoken to him in the past likely played a part in his teshuvah as well. Speaking the truth in love, having mercy and compassion, praying for him, etc. all makes for a greater joy when the fruit comes. In a couple of weeks, we will be having a family gathering here near where I am in Virginia where another brother and his homosexual partner will be visiting from Florida (see a connection?). I pray for good seed to be planted in good soil. Maybe you will pray from Florida into this situation up here, too, and share joy in a greater way when the reward comes, all to His esteem. Thanks, if you do.
Blessings.
Seeker
Interesting depiction to recall different biblical messages.
A very easy way to remember the great reflections left for us to understand how God interacted during various eras with mankind.
Jerry if I may; A friend once told me that I should not judge other cultures when they use idols or images to remember to worship the God being reminded of through these images. We use days and specific clothes to remember or show respect these work of arts could have the same purpose with these groups of believers. Was it not Paul that said endeavour to manifest the spiritual gifts and he will show an even purer route to serve God with (OWN WORDS). We are all growing as we discover better ways of bringing glory to our Creator…
I hear you. Judgment belongs to YHWH, though it is often through His prophets (not saying I am one of them) that they are expressed, with warnings, as well as promises for repentance. So the whole “don’t judge others” idea is not always the loving thing to do. Let each man be examined by YHWH. An important question for those doing such practices is whether or not such things are idols being used in offering worship to other elohim and what if any place such things have in the worship of YHWH. As for me, I remember that Scripture says of itself that it is profitable for reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, and the Ruach HaKodesh is given to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As we seek that this always first applied to us, shall we not also let the manner of our loving others be somewhat aligned with this also, not forsaking mercy while we do?
“Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but excessive the kisses of an enemy.” [Pro 27:5-6]
Don Richardson (“Peace Child”, “Eternity in their Hearts”) reminds us that at Babel, everyone knew of creation, the flood and the tower. They all had a knowledge of God. When I talk with people of pagan backgrounds, who have many gods, I suggest, with Richardson, that they have a faulty memory due to oral transmission, and that the Hebrew record actually survived the flood (see P.J. Wiseman) and has a more clear understanding. I suggest that their tradition properly captured the attributes of God, but mistakenly divided them between many gods, rather than attribute them to the one and only God.
I apply the same reasoning to the Greek menagerie of churches. They have a memory of God. They have more than just the memory, because they still possess the written word as well.
The name Elohim, means EL- God, im- water (the son with creation, or his people) separated with a hei – drawn, but not understanding. From the beginning we have not understood that God alone is God. Our instinctive nature chooses good and evil for ourselves without thought… usurping the position of God, Our carnal flesh is war with God.
The fix is teaching. I start with what they have and teach from there. When I recognize the utter sinfulness of my instinctive nature and there is a motivation to teach, judgement has no place.
My questions for discussion are, “How does YHWH interpret these and what ought to be the manner in which we regard them?” Are they idols, the works of men’s hands? Were they created to honor the One True Elohim of Israel, if that is even something that He would approve (and what about the temple of David/Solomon)? Or are they created to honor the elohim of a form of religion of man who deny the power thereof? Are we to look upon them with amazement for their grandness (Is that not humanism – the idolatry of man)? Are they just works of art to be enjoyed for their “beauty”, for YHWH is an Elohim of beauty and He created man in His image to create beauty? Or are they to be looked on as an editorial of the people of that culture at that time and evoke a sense of grief and contempt for the spirit of delusion that was sent to them because they did not receive a love of the truth? Is it good to capture these images if they are being used for educational purposes regarding that which is prohibited by YHWH? And is it acceptable that we promote these images without editorial writings and even sell them for profit?
some of my thoughts. As I travel the world teaching about the God of Israel, I discover more and more that people attempt to worship God within their own culture. I grant that they often do not have the “correct” biblical worldview, but most of the time that isn’t their fault. They grew up with centuries of mis-information. What’s most important is that they WANT to worship God, even if their education within the Church was framed by those who deliberately (or not) chose to ignore that call of YHVH. So here we have examples of people who really did dedicate themselves to honoring God in the way that they understood Him. Their experience was an emotional one, just as it is for me when I see the awesome beauty of their efforts. One can hardly enter a cathedral like this and not be overwhelmed by the presence of God, unless of course, you simply see it as syncretism and refuse to accept the emotional involvement of these (misinformed) believers. I think God is a lot more patient than we tend to be. We focus on being RIGHT rather than asking what it would have been like to spend 300 years building such monuments to the worship of God. Yes, I know all the bad history, but I’m not sure that it erases the inspiration of those who actually created these masterpieces. Anyway, I tend to find more and more signs of God’s involvement in ALL the ways men and women try to worship Him. I realize that isn’t very orthodox, but then maybe God has been very tolerant of me over the course of my lifetime of changing and I need to extend that same patience to others.
Thanks for your thoughts, Skip. I hear all you’re saying and have shared the same thoughts and affections, and even still do, in small part, whether it is right or not, I just do. However, I’m not finding that this all quite settles with me now. For me, it’s not so much about judging others about it all, but about me knowing His judgements about it all for me, as I try not to forget His mercy and justice in the meanwhile. I’m only trying to seek the truth and invite, even exhort, others to consider the same questions, even as I appreciate so much that you do.
I think about idolatry being one of the greatest concerns, knowing Him and His worth, and worshiping Him in the way that is most true to what He has revealed of Himself and His ways. And not participating in the ways of those who practice idolatry.
And I remember the words of Messiah – “As Yeshua was going out of the Temple, one of His disciples said to Him, ‘Teacher, look! What stones and what buildings!’ Yeshua said to him, ‘You see these great buildings? Not one stone here will be left upon another. Every one will be torn down!’” [Mar 13:1-2]
I know this was probably, for the most part, about what was to come and that He even said “these great buildings”. However, I can’t help but also think He probably was not saying HE thought the buildings were great, but that He was referencing His disciple’s view that they were great and that He was probably also commenting that because they were just stones upon stones, the work of the hands of men, and that they wouldn’t for long even be buildings, that they were not worthy of being ascribed greatness and being adored, regardless of the “worshipful” intent of those who built them.
I think may be all, and not “buildings”, that is worthy of being ascribed greatness – “Destroy this Temple,” Yeshua answered them, “and in three days I will raise it up.” The Judean leaders then said to Him, “Forty-six years this Temple was being built, and You will raise it up in three days?” But He was talking about the temple of His body. [Joh 2:19-21]
I remember laying on the ground at the base of the steel arch in St. Louis and considering how “great and awesome” was that building. And then I saw its shadow, and then I was in awe of the “greatness of the sun” that was responsible for the shadow of this “great building”. Then I “saw” the greatness and the awesomeness of the Creator of both the sun and man who created that structure, and I realized, there was really no greatness at all in the steel arch there in St. Louis, for the greatness of our Creator so out shines any work of the hands of men that I must ask myself, “Is there any work of man worthy to be considered “great and awesome”.
In the first use of this phrase in Scripture, it is written, “You should not be terrified of them, since Adonai your God is in your midst—a great and awesome God.” [Deu 7:21]
And then following in the same passage it is written, “The carved images of their gods you are to burn with fire. You are not to covet the silver or gold on them or take it for yourself—or you could be snared by it, for it is an abomination to Adonai your God. You are not to bring an abomination into your house—for you, like it, will be a banned thing. You must utterly detest and utterly abhor it, for it is set apart for destruction.” [Deu 7:25-26]
Then Nehemiah said, “Adonai, God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps the covenant and lovingkindness with those who love Him and keep His mitzvot…” [Neh. 1:5]
And lastly, Joel prophesied, “The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and awesome day of Adonai comes.” [Joe 3:4]
I will trust in His mercy, but I desire more to know how to love Him and keep His mitzvot.
If such “art” and “buildings” are being offered in worship and are idols, then maybe we ought to be very concerned about what is “right”, unless my view is “wrong”.
“Therefore, my dearly loved ones, flee from idolatry. I speak as to sensible people—judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless—isn’t it a sharing of Messiah’s blood? The bread which we break—isn’t it a sharing of Messiah’s body? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body—for we all partake of the one bread. Consider physical Israel. Those who eat the sacrifices—aren’t they partners in the altar? What am I saying then—that an idol sacrifice is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I’m saying that what the pagans sacrifice is to demons and not to God, and I don’t want you to become partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.” [Co 10:14-21]
Anyways, I thank you, Skip, for your service through studying and teaching the word and for the opportunity to discuss such things with you here. Your Hebrew Word Study does often reprove, correct, and train in righteousness. It does often convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. It does often reveal the things of Messiah and help to lead into all the truth. And it does often comfort. All helping to fulfill all the promises of the purposes of both the Scriptures and the Ruach HaKodesh.
Great reply. As you have probably discerned, I am also on the journey to find Him, and in the process discovering that my prior restrictions have been roadblocks to see ALL that He is doing in other’s lives. But there is still the true path– and mercy. May we find that same mercy that He has shown.
Even today, I am giving thanks for Him having already removed some of my “roadblocks” so that I could now fully rejoice in what I was already seeing, encouraging, supporting, and rejoicing in, that which YHWH has been doing in the life of one of my brothers who today testified by writing to us, his family, that he had “come out of the darkness and into the light”, that just because he didn’t have an attraction for women all his life, he didn’t have to believe the lie that he had to be homosexual. After 20 years of being deceived and having much pain in the struggle, I have been watching YHWH leading him out and now into the path of righteousness.
This is a little of what he wrote in a message he entitled, “You Shall Know the Truth” –
He said, “The past almost 20 yrs I had allowed myself to believe this lie and it has been a serious waste. I have lost the person and soul I once was. I miss that person and wish to God I never went down that path. I am now totally free from the past lifestyle and not wanting to return to it. I no longer support anything that is connected with it and believe I lived in sin. I have confessed this to God and am asking Him daily to do for me what I can not do for myself. The ‘anointing’ that I seek is to BE the person I was created to be and LOVE him and allow him to do what I know is what I do well and best, (to be single and) to do the type of job I have been doing for the past 30 plus year.” (He nurses sick and disabled people in their homes.)
Yes, it is good to remove the restrictions that are “roadblocks to seeing ALL that He is doing in other’s lives”. Then we can better co-labor with Him and share in the joy of what He’s doing in a much greater way. I must say that I also believe that some of the reproof, correction, and training in righteousness that I have spoken to him in the past likely played a part in his teshuvah as well. Speaking the truth in love, having mercy and compassion, praying for him, etc. all makes for a greater joy when the fruit comes. In a couple of weeks, we will be having a family gathering here near where I am in Virginia where another brother and his homosexual partner will be visiting from Florida (see a connection?). I pray for good seed to be planted in good soil. Maybe you will pray from Florida into this situation up here, too, and share joy in a greater way when the reward comes, all to His esteem. Thanks, if you do.
Blessings.
Interesting depiction to recall different biblical messages.
A very easy way to remember the great reflections left for us to understand how God interacted during various eras with mankind.
Jerry if I may; A friend once told me that I should not judge other cultures when they use idols or images to remember to worship the God being reminded of through these images. We use days and specific clothes to remember or show respect these work of arts could have the same purpose with these groups of believers. Was it not Paul that said endeavour to manifest the spiritual gifts and he will show an even purer route to serve God with (OWN WORDS). We are all growing as we discover better ways of bringing glory to our Creator…
I hear you. Judgment belongs to YHWH, though it is often through His prophets (not saying I am one of them) that they are expressed, with warnings, as well as promises for repentance. So the whole “don’t judge others” idea is not always the loving thing to do. Let each man be examined by YHWH. An important question for those doing such practices is whether or not such things are idols being used in offering worship to other elohim and what if any place such things have in the worship of YHWH. As for me, I remember that Scripture says of itself that it is profitable for reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, and the Ruach HaKodesh is given to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As we seek that this always first applied to us, shall we not also let the manner of our loving others be somewhat aligned with this also, not forsaking mercy while we do?
“Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but excessive the kisses of an enemy.” [Pro 27:5-6]
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Don Richardson (“Peace Child”, “Eternity in their Hearts”) reminds us that at Babel, everyone knew of creation, the flood and the tower. They all had a knowledge of God. When I talk with people of pagan backgrounds, who have many gods, I suggest, with Richardson, that they have a faulty memory due to oral transmission, and that the Hebrew record actually survived the flood (see P.J. Wiseman) and has a more clear understanding. I suggest that their tradition properly captured the attributes of God, but mistakenly divided them between many gods, rather than attribute them to the one and only God.
I apply the same reasoning to the Greek menagerie of churches. They have a memory of God. They have more than just the memory, because they still possess the written word as well.
The name Elohim, means EL- God, im- water (the son with creation, or his people) separated with a hei – drawn, but not understanding. From the beginning we have not understood that God alone is God. Our instinctive nature chooses good and evil for ourselves without thought… usurping the position of God, Our carnal flesh is war with God.
The fix is teaching. I start with what they have and teach from there. When I recognize the utter sinfulness of my instinctive nature and there is a motivation to teach, judgement has no place.